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作者: BobChen (主前靜默人前宣揚) 看板: LocalChurch
標題: [轉錄]針對CATHY姐妹第四､五點
時間: Thu Mar 28 18:57:14 2002
※ [本文轉錄自 Theology 看板]
作者: OldFish (老漁夫) 看板: Theology
標題: 針對CATHY姐妹第四､五點
時間: Fri Mar 30 07:40:54 2001
針對CATHY姐妹第四､五點
我再次引經具典的引用下面
下面是摘錄自
基督教歷代名著集成
基督教早期文獻選集
基督教文藝出版社
以及BIBLESTUDY。COM裡面早期教父的書信
反中文皆出於基督教早期文獻選集､英文資料出於BIBLESTUDY。COM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
&& 一世紀教父至教會書信
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給亞細亞的以弗所那值
得所有稱讚的教會
依格那丟達以弗所人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephisians､P47
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給那借這我們救主耶穌
基督､領受聖父上帝的恩賜有福的教會 我奉主耶穌的名
､文化在米安特河旁､馬內夏的教會。。。你們當中不
可有任何使你們分裂的事､卻要與主教､與管理你們的
人結合一致､作為永生的榜樣和教訓
依格那丟達馬內夏人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
､P57
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給亞細亞他拉勒的聖教會
。。。
依格那丟達他拉勒人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
､P57
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給那在至高聖父和他獨
一兒子耶穌基督的偉大中得蒙憐憫的教會。。。她又住
在羅馬人的地域裡
(注﹕這裡的羅馬人並不是指羅馬帝國的人､而是羅馬城
人､故羅馬人的地域乃指羅馬城的地域)
依格那丟達羅馬人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
､P70
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給亞細亞的非拉鐵非教會､
。。。我弟兄哪､不可自欺､任何依附那使教會分派的人､
㨩ㄞ鄔茖𡝰囿滌�)(林前九﹕十)
依格那丟達非拉鐵非人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians
､P76
&
&
依格那丟又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給上帝聖父和蒙愛的耶穌基
督的教會､就是在亞細亞士每拿的教會
依格那丟達士每拿人書The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
､P82
&
&
依格那丟､又名提阿甫﹖﹖､寫信給坡律甲､及士每拿教會
的主教､。。。我得了報告､說你們為安提阿教會祈禱。。
依格那丟達坡律甲書The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
､P89
&
&
坡律甲和他的同公和眾長老､寫信給僑居在腓利比神的教會
坡律甲達腓力比人書The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
､P96
&
&
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Tarsus,
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/Ignatius/
view.cgi?file=anf01-28.htm&size=20
&
&
. I hand over to thee the Church of Antioch. I have commended you to Polycarp
in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Epistle of Ignatius to Hero, a Deacon of Antioch
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/Ignatius/
view.cgi?file=anf01-30.htm&size=20
&
&
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God which is at
Philippi,
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/Ignatius/
view.cgi?file=anf01-31.htm&size=20
&
&
The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning
in Philomelium,(1) and to all the congregations(2) of the Holy and Catholic
Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our
Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrnam
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/Polycarp/
view.cgi?file=anf01-13.htm&size=20
&
&
&& 二､三世紀殘卷
Eusebius is almost diffuse in what he tells us of this Dionysius,(1) "who
was appointed over the church at Corinth, 。。。。and, as Eusebius says,
Dionysius the Areopagite, the convert of St. Paul, was the first bishop
of Athens
Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth.
Fragments from a Letter to the Roman Church.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/RemainsoftheSecondandThirdCenturies/
view.cgi?file=anf08-166.htm&size=20
&
&
Our author belonged to a family in which he was the eighth Christian bishop;
and he presided over the church of Ephesus
From His Epistle to Victor and the Roman Church Concerning the Day of Keeping
the Passover.(1)
Remains of the Second and Third Centuries
Polycrates(1) Bishop of Ephesus.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/RemainsoftheSecondandThirdCenturies/
view.cgi?file=anf08-170.htm&size=20
&
&
It began thus:-"The servants of Christ who sojourn in Vienna and Lugdunum
of Gaul to the brethren throughout Asia and Phrygia, who have the same faith
and hope of redemption as ourselves, peace, grace, and glory from God the
Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord."
Remains of the Second and Third Centuries
The Letter of the Churches of Vienna and Lugdunum to the Churches of Asia
and Phrygia(1)
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/RemainsoftheSecondandThirdCenturies/
view.cgi?file=anf08-176.htm&size=20
& 四世紀教父至教會書信
The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning
at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through
our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through
Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/ClementofRome/
view.cgi?file=anf01-05.htm&size=20
&
&
Zephyrinus, archbishop of the city of Rome, to all the bishops settled in
Sicily, in the Lord, greeting.
The Decretals
The First Epistle
to All the Bishops of Sicily.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/TheDecretals/
view.cgi?file=anf08-116.htm&size=20
&
&& 四世紀教皇書信
Zephyrinus, archbishop of the city of Rome, to the most beloved brethren
who serve the Lord in Egypt.
The Decretals
The Second Epistle
To the Bishops of the Province of Egypt.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/TheDecretals/
view.cgi?file=anf08-117.htm&size=20
&
&
Callistus, archbishop of the Church Catholic in the city of Rome, to Benedictus,
our brother and bishop, greeting in the Lord.
The Decretals
The First Epistle(1)
to Bishop Benedictus
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/TheDecretals/
view.cgi?file=anf08-120.htm&size=20
&
&
Whence it follows that you ought to know what is being done in things sacred
in the church of Rome, in order that, by following her example, ye may be
found to be true children of her who is called your mother.
The First Epistle
to All the Ministers of the Church Catholic.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/TheDecretals/
view.cgi?file=anf08-130.htm&size=20
&
&
Fabian, bishop of the city of Rome, to all the bishops of the East, and
to the whole body of the faithful, greeting in the Lord.
The Second Epistle
to All the Bishops of the East.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Ante-Nicene/TheDecretals/
view.cgi?file=anf08-131.htm&size=20
&
&
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
從這些從一世紀橫誇到四世紀中教會中間來往書信的資料來
看､在早期會的組織確實是㨩@地一會㷍N而且挷蛣P𤧅]
是以城市為名
就以羅馬城的教會來說､從保羅寫羅馬書的使徒時代､一致
到天主教正式成立､教皇革利免寫革利免致哥林多人書(The
First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians)､羅馬教會不論經歷
多少的使徒､長老､主教的帶領 在這四百年內､羅馬教會就
是羅馬教會 甚至今天您找一個天主教徒問問､他也會回答�
羅馬教會高於一切的教會�
而這也與林前一至三章保羅所記載的､不論是保羅自己､還是
彼得､還是亞波羅､不論這些使徒的教訓如何､不論當地信徒
的口味如何､所有的使徒都只到㨩@個𥇧籅L多教會講道歉他
們的信､也只寫給㨩@個𤪺q林多教會 四百年､教會仍是一個
教會､招牌仍是一個招牌
所以下面CATHY姐妹的兩點根本站不住腳
4. 就算有很多書信是以『寫給某某地方教會的信』起始，只能證明：該寫信人在該
地有建 立教會，不能證明其他人沒有在該地建立教會，那根本不能算作證據，不
用再拿出來了 ！不能證明什麼的！
5. 最近考古學研究根本認為是否是從耶路撒冷的獨一教會而四散到各城，還是從一
開始 就是多傳統並行發展，甚至一地多教會，都是可能的。這種所謂『一地一教
會』的聖經 或歷史根據，還有得談哩！
不論是保羅在羅馬還是革利免在羅馬､羅馬教會就是羅馬教會 這
證明揑C路撒冷的獨一教會而四散到各城，還是從一開始 就是多
傳統並行發展𡡤熊痕G､就是㨩@地一會睸睅湚ALKER的基督教
會史145頁的記載､在251年𥖄僭迂郱|釺野|六長老､七執事､七
副執事､三萬教友人根據ATLAS OF THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY
第77頁､四世紀時羅馬就有不下三十座教堂
但是他們是因為有三十座以上的教堂就分成三十個教會(先不論名稱
)､而成為㨩@地多教會� 答案是否定的 因為如果是㨩@地多教會�
請問CATHY､您如何解釋､
革利免不以革利免堂､
Fabian不用Fabian會
Callistu不用Callistu教會､
Zephyrinus不用Zephyrinus教會､
而收信各教會也不是某某堂會這挷腔禰|百年𡡤�𢹸ⅴ�㷍S
很明顯的､就歷史來看､就算教會是就是多傳統並行發展､也不影響
教會㨩@地一會𡡤滬鴢h以及實行
何況依格那丟明在依格那丟達馬內夏人書中､所說的﹕“你們當中
不可有任何使你們分裂的事､卻要與主教､與管理你們的人結合一
致､作為永生的榜樣和教訓” 和他在依格那丟達非拉鐵非人書中所
說的“我弟兄哪､不可自欺､任何依附那使教會分派的人､㨩ㄞ鄔�
受神的國)(林前九﹕十)”這兩段話更是站在與保羅在林前對付分裂
的同樣立場､直接否定了“一地多教會”的“假設”
唯一一個能夠合理支持㨩@地多教會𡡤熔z論､是一地有很多會护�
�(房子､聚會點) 但是如果我們參考 我前文引用教會的揑鼽q� 教會
的原義是與舊約的會眾相等､指的是一群聚在一起敬拜神的基督徒(an
assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting )
我的結論就是､CATHY姐妹在真理的辨證上面､明顯的犯了�
以房子的觀念來衡量人的觀念𡡤瑪欞~ 在態度方面､堅持己見
､否定事實､而持著一種𩣪A就是錯､就是該死的態度�
所以在這裡所凸顯的是我們(聚會所方面的弟兄)所一直強調一般華人
教會對我們的誤解的兩個重要原因﹕
一､在缺乏對所批判會所教訓作一個全面性､整體性的研究之前
就妄下定論
二､在批判之中､參雜了許多的個人甚至宗派成見 而無視於(特別是
歷史)會所方面教導的事實根據
面對這樣的態度､實在叫人無法再繼續討論､
這就算我回您的最後一篇貼文
也請對這個題目有興趣的弟兄姐妹､在真理､對話態度以及對我所提
出的證據､都能夠有一個再思
我不期望大家能𣋠{同𤫇E會所､但是我希望我們能夠就事論事､也
能夠接納聚會所出自𣑐X理𡡤漸蒆鶞滷郋� 而避免情緒上的無理攻擊
老漁夫
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